Xenia

[Gilberto]

Wagner, fiquei curioso também, imagino que seja de fato como nas motos, carros, um CQD, pode se desenvolver algum fornecedor nacional para coisas simples , vomo as chapas, .... E impirta-se o restante, bem como a montagem da maquina. Daria uma boa economia em impostos.

 

Não li no site da Xenia ainda, mas os 2 PIDS controlariam o grupo e a caldeira ?

Todas as máquinas vem com 2 resistencias no grupo ? Só muda o controle se é por termostato ou PId ?

[lipe_oa]

Hahahhah... Que vacilo meu Gil, assim a agua sai por gravidade e deixa o HX vazio...

Muito simples. Muito genial (se for mais eficaz que o comum).

Tem outro incoveniente, desperdicio de agua. Mass...

Alguem sabe o tamanho do HX?

[Gilberto]

Por enquanto eu não achei esta informação , mas imagino uns 25 mls.

Lipe, não sai por gravidade, sai por ter uma pressão maior que a externa.

[sergio.m]

Gravidade sim Gil. Pressão não dura nada, líquido é basicamente incompressível.

 

Lipe desperdicio tem na hx convencional tb. É o flush da água super quente pré extração.

[Gilberto]

Hummmm, legal Sergio.

[sergio.m]

O desenho seria esse:

 

[lipe_oa]

Massa o desenho Sergio.. Quanto ao desperdicio, é vdd mesmo, as 2 opções tem perda.

Por isso q eu tenho uma fixação por maquinas DB. Acho que a estabilidade entregue por elas é a ideal, temperatura quase flat.

Tem maquinas de alavanca q tmb são praticamente flat.

[carlos eduardo]

Welcome to CDC mister Holger , beautiful machine , the thermal project and modular concept are very interesting.

 

The size of your machine is unbelievable , almost same size of my ECM Classika (SB) , but your machine is a HX and can upgrade to DB.

 

Congratulations for your project .

[Gilberto]

Holger,

I saw that you tested various sizes and bends in the tube HX, HX tube is now final?

[Iskanda]

I can post again. Thanks to the admin for the support! I have to leave the office soon, but I can post some answers now.

 

 

É uma pena mesmo Murilo, penaa se alguem dia pudermos desfrutar de uma maquina com esses parameteos (que me parecem bastante interessante) por um preço assim, 1500+- reais. Que seja o dobro, 3000, ainda seria um preço "justo" pensando e comparando com o que somos submetidos hj.
Aguardemos uma empresa brasileira. Vai q um dia sai.

 

3000 is really too much.

 

It could be an idea to send any machine as collection of parts. May be spare parts are having lower taxes.

[Iskanda]

I think is because of the shape very square.

One question, which is the boiler size? And the HX?

 

It is square...it is a german product But this is also a result of (1) beeing as small as possible and (2) beeing a large as needed.

 

We 'hide' the square case a bit by adding an angle of 15° at the corners.

 

As to me it makes the appearance more 'light'.

[lipe_oa]

Yes, 3000 is to much but for us it is a commum price for a used machine. Or even more than this.

About the square shape, I like. Looks like classic for me.

And your idea about send the machine in parts is nice but I think that the taxes will be the same.

[Iskanda]

I was trying to read and understand all the new comments and before I answer some of them, I will explain the main idea of the machine. I run a bit out of time as today the (hopefully last samples of the steel sheet parts arrived and thursday I have the occation to attend the anual meeting of a choir/orchestra in middle Germany and I can offer Espresso and Cappuccino for 4 days. Actually I prepared one Xenia H and I want to build a 2nd Xenia. I hope the rotary pump will arrive early enough.

As you already know it the idea was to make only one machine. The idea comes from my profession (software developer) and from the talks with the customers. Often they choose a machine but want to have it with i.e. black manometers. Or with joystick-valves, a.s.o.

 

If this idea is present from the beginning you can take 'everything' in consideration - also a 2nd boiler or a rotary pump. Of corse it is not easy and I don't know how many changes have been made. Some hundred until it was good.

A machine with 2 boilers is a great idea but  only - as to my opinion - if it is done like i.e. the Dalla Corte Mina. But I think that a machine with 2 boilers and a brewgroup like the E61 is not the best choice because: a lot of material (2nd boiler,...) and a lot of efforts by using sensors and a control units. The result: 1/2 litre of water  at 92,2° and when the machine pumps 25 or 50ml to the brew group the little bit water gets in contact with a 3 or 4 kilo 'uncontrolled' brewgroup. What ever was done before this moment to heat up the water to the desired temperature - it is in vain the moment the water enters the group.

 

Based on this consideration of a Dualboiler our idea was to get more control of the brewgroup and use boiler/HX only to pre-heat the water. This job can be done - as to me - by a cheap heat exchanger. An expensive boiler with sensors a.s.o. is not really needed. As HX-machines having one main advantage (overheated water) we empty the HX after each shot. And the HX is very very small (only some ml) we loose not much water - probably much less than a real cool flush.  And as the HX is always empty, we have always the condition: cold water for each shot.

Here you see the boiler heating and around an old version of the HX:

To improve the influence of the brewgroup we have installed in the channel a kind of turbulator. It mixes the water and helps to give the water to the final temperature.

We also use 2 heating cartridges for the brew group  - but not to control the temperature (for the Version B and H). There is a heavy copper bridge from the boiler to the group. It provides very stable energy to the group. So we use the cartridges only to heat up the heavy group and let the boiler and bridge do the rest: stable temperature.

 

If  want you can consider the Xenia as a machine with 2 huge thermo blocs: One is the boiler and one is the brew group.

 

The version DP will work a bit different. We reduce the transfer of energy to the group to the lowest useful temperature (i.e. 90°) and we use a PT100-Sensor and the heating cartridges and Solid State Relays to archive the desired temperature. This is a kind of short term change. If it works for the user  the system will try to change the boiler temperature to get by the copper bridge the right temperature for the brewgoup. This may take 10 or 20 minutes - but this energy is nearly for free. If it works - no more need to use the heating cartridges to archive the desired temperature.  Actually we don't know if this works as the needed extension board is under development. But we think there is a good chance.

@iskanda, very nice job! and welcome aboard CdC Forum.

 

@sergio, check "Xenia - the concept" (in the English link provided above) for more technical informations, is worth the reading. About the start up time:

"With two 150-watt cartridges, the brew group reaches the desired temperature in only about 11 minute."

 

Actually we use 2x100 Watt and it is ~22 minutes.

As Burny said above,I prefer machines in polished steel. Just my opinion. But I think the front panel has a lot of things in a small space. For example, the leds are just behind hot water wand. The concept is Ok. Congratulations.

 

Ok. We have steel with a brilliant surface and a bit later9 with a mate surface.

The HX ends up working like a thermoblock, am I mistaken?

 

You are right.

Iskanda, now I've read all. The empty HX tube is a very clever idea, congrats! Just a question. What happens to the extraction temperature when the water in the reservoir is very different from 20 C (15 C or 27 C). It will get one offset, right? Perhaps you need to compensate this by using one temperature of the boiler that depends on the temperature of the reservoir?

 

I doubt that there will be a big change. But this is not very important in germany. We have ususally not hot and long summers and so the room temperature is usually ~20°. And there is an option to isolate the tank more (apart from teh fact that it has 5mm walls of glas).

 

But I never tested it. It is a good idea to try it one day. But I expect that 25 or 50 ml water with i.e. +4° will have not much influence on the 3,5 kg of the brewgroup.

How to pronounce Xenia? X = Z ?
Nevertheless, looks like an incredible machine.

 

X like Xylophone.

Lipe, a 3 vias é antes do hx, não depois como é o usual.

 

Correct. Just a small change.

Hahahhah... Que vacilo meu Gil, assim a agua sai por gravidade e deixa o HX vazio...
Muito simples. Muito genial (se for mais eficaz que o comum).
Tem outro incoveniente, desperdicio de agua. Mass...
Alguem sabe o tamanho do HX?

 

It is very small. But this will be a secret (as long a possible). I made many many many HX to find the right shape and dimension

Holger,
I saw that you tested various sizes and bends in the tube HX, HX tube is now final?

 

Yes. We know the parameters.

And your idea about send the machine in parts is nice but I think that the taxes will be the same.

 

Sometimes parts are having lower taxes (i.e. at Malaysia).

 

That's it for today. Please ask those questions, where I haven't provided a sufficient answer. Or may be someting is unclear - english is not our native language and it is not easy to explain and undertand 

[sergio.m]

The group is heavy but do not underestimate the heat capacity of water. It is 11 times of brass for example. =)

 

But I undestand. If in Germany the room temperature have small variation, then no problem.

[Iskanda]

The group is heavy but do not underestimate the heat capacity of water. It is 11 times of brass for example. =)

 

But I undestand. If in Germany the room temperature have small variation, then no problem.

 

You are right. It will have some influence.

 

But even the variation would be not small...I have no affordable idea do anything against this problem. All machines are 'suffering' this problem and it is a bit like I want to find a solution, against the problem of roasted beans with minor quality

 

The only help I can offer is to isolate tank with a additional layer of i.e. Armaflex against the boiler. But the isolation is already quiet good

 

But is it in Brasil an important problem ?

[Wagner Castilho]

Leider kann ich nicht an dieser Debatte zu beteiligen. Ich kann nicht reden über den Preis oder hier Import. Wenn Sie Ihre Maschine anbieten wollen, öffnen Sie ein Thema "classificados". 

[Rodrigoks]

I guess if there is some influence it could be checked with a Scace device. But I believe the water is pumped inside the boiler in a temperature slightly bigger than room temperature because the pipes leading water should be warm close to the boiler.

[Iskanda]

Leider kann ich nicht an dieser Debatte zu beteiligen. Ich kann nicht reden über den Preis oder hier Import. Wenn Sie Ihre Maschine anbieten wollen, öffnen Sie ein Thema "classificados". 

 

I don't want to talk about prices or import and I there is no intention to offer the machine in your country or to find a dealer. We are too small to handle it.

I guess if there is some influence it could be checked with a Scace device. But I believe the water is pumped inside the boiler in a temperature slighter bigger than room temperature because the pipes leading water should be warm close to the boiler.

 

I tried it some time ago but I was not sure about the influence. I think hot weather is having more influence on the brewgroup than to the water in the tank.

[sergio.m]

But is it in Brasil an important problem ?

In my house, the room temperature difference between summer evening and winter early morning is something like 13 C.

 

I think with 3 temperature sensors (group, boiler, tank) must be possible to arrive at a desired extraction temperature with precision.

[Gilberto]

The extraction temperature is controlled by changing the boiler pressure with a screwdriver in the upper right cover? or in the version with PID control this would be the second PIDS.

pre infusion can not be done, right?

[Guilherme Torres]

Congrats! It appears to be a very good and beautiful espresso machine!

[Iskanda]

The extraction temperature is controlled by changing the boiler pressure with a screwdriver in the upper right cover? or in the version with PID control this would be the second PIDS.

 

 

2 x Yes

 

pre infusion can not be done, right?

 

We can do it by software. We have a Solidstaterelais for the pump and we control the pump.

 

But it is not sure that we offer it. May be the Firmware will be published and there will be a community to develop new features. But it is not that we are lazy and want other people do the job. 2 reasons:

(1) more involved people = more ideas

(2) no danger to violate any existing patents

[Gilberto]

As a curiosity, it would not be viable a ball valve with the group to pre infusion, but other GS3, with the power and diverting pump via valve, part of the flow to the tray?

[Gilberto]

I was thinking that this pre-infusion, either via valve or electronic form, will make the water stay longer in the HX and can interfere with the extraction temperature.

[Iskanda]

As a curiosity, it would not be viable a ball valve with the group to pre infusion, but other GS3, with the power and diverting pump via valve, part of the flow to the tray?

 

We have 1 free slot for a valve on the board and it could be possible.

I was thinking that this pre-infusion, either via valve or electronic form, will make the water stay longer in the HX and can interfere with the extraction temperature.

 

I think your idea is right - this can happen. Measurements with a Scace should be done if we want to try it.

[Burny]

Wouldn't a small termoblock before the HX that ensures water always enters into the HX with the same temperature, let's say 40C resolve the issue of varying input temperature? Or would this be too expensive?

[Iskanda]

A thermoblock is - as to me - not a stable source of heat. You need i.e. a thermostat to control it. Often a TY60 from Campini is used and this type is having a hysteresis in the worst case of 14°C. At 40° it meight be still the half. I can install a better themostat but it will have at least ~4°C hystersis. It makes the problem worse - and you have this problem probably every day - not only if the climate is very hot.

 

An idea could be to make the tube before the HX longer and 'turn' it around the boiler. But this will cause that the HX will be not empty after a shot. Hm...this could be fixed with an additional 3-way-valve.....

 

May be the best way would be an additonal sensor, as sergio said. But yes: a lot of efforts (for the basic machines) which raises the price ... and with a 'low' infliuence on the result.

 

However we can be open for suggestions and improvements in the future, as we have some liberty concerning the design and features.

[Gilberto]

I quote some details, but it's not because I think your machine needs.

And yes, because you are a person who is to three years thinking about the functions and features of the espresso machine, and with this knowledge any comments can be useful at some point.

 

The valve ball I thought in a mechanical valve 3-way, thinking a little better about the temperature of the HX, the temperature can be controlled hitting the restrictor size of the escape route, of course, using the above system.

[Juba]

I don't want to talk about prices or import and I there is no intention to offer the machine in your country or to find a dealer. We are too small to handle it.

 

 

I have an idea: you could do just like ARM - they just design their processors, they don't have factories. You would sell Xenia's licenses, so other companies could build it.

 

It could be a solution for Brazil or other countries around the world for example.

[Guilherme Torres]

Juba,

Como a coisa não é patenteável, igual o design e a tipografia de um chip (porque se trata, no máximo, de nova técnica), ficaria muito arriscado para ele fazer isso. Não haveria garantia de que a dita empresa não se apropriaria do projeto, alteraria um ou outro detalhe (por exemplo, software e algum sensor), chutaria a licença para bem longe e passaria ela mesma a fabricar sua "versão". Juridicamente até é viável se instaurar um processo por violação de contrato (mas não de patente, no caso). O problema é que processos, no Brasil, são caros, duram anos a fio e, algumas vezes, tem resultados não desejáveis. Eu não toparia.

Ikanda,

Selling parts or the espresso machine itself is one thing. Selling the technique, and licensing to another company to produce it is a very different approach, different worlds. At least at juridical point of view.